[107 Senate Committee Prints]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:83870.wais]
S. Prt. 107-84
EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
=======================================================================
VOLUME 2
__________
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
1953
MADE PUBLIC JANUARY 2003
Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs
_______
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
107th Congress, Second Session
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
Richard A. Hertling, Minority Staff Director
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii, SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois TED STEVENS, Alaska
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Kim Corthell, Minority Staff Director
Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
83rd Congress, First Session
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas \1\
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington \1\
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri \1\
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
assistant counsels
Robert F. Kennedy Donald A. Surine
Thomas W. La Venia Jerome S. Adlerman
Donald F. O'Donnell C. George Anastos
Daniel G. Buckley
investigators
Robert J. McElroy
Herbert S. Hawkins James N. Juliana
G. David Schine, Chief Consultant
Karl H. W. Baarslag, Director of Research
Carmine S. Bellino, Consulting Accountant
La Vern J. Duffy, Staff Assistant
----------
\1\ The Democratic members were absent from the subcommittee from
July 10, 1953 to January 25, 1954.
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Volume 2
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
March 23....................................................... 913
Testimony of Mary M. Kaufman; Sol Auerbach (James S. Allen);
and William Marx Mandel.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
March 24....................................................... 945
Testimony of Samuel Dashiell Hammett; Helen Goldfrank; Jerre
G. Mangione; and James Langston Hughes.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
March 25....................................................... 999
Testimony of Mary Van Kleeck; and Edwin Seaver.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
March 31....................................................... 1015
Testimony of Edward W. Barrett.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
April 1........................................................ 1045
Testimony of Dan Mabry Lacy
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
April 24....................................................... 1071
Testimony of James A. Wechsler-published in 1953.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
April 28....................................................... 1073
Testimony of Theodore Kaghan.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers,
May 5.......................................................... 1115
Testimony of James A. Wechsler-published in 1953.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, May 5. 1117
Testimony of Millen Brand.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, May 6. 1123
Testimony of John L. Donovan.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, May 13 1135
Testimony of James Aronson; and Cedric Belfrage.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, May 19 1161
Testimony of Julien Bryan.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, July 1 1193
Testimony of Richard O. Boyer; Rockwell Kent; Edwin B.
Burgum; Joseph Freeman; George Seldes; and Doxey Wilkerson.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, July 2 1217
Testimony of Allan Chase.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, July 7 1223
Testimony of Eslanda Goode Robeson; Arnaud d'Usseau; and Leo
Huberman.
State Department Information Service--Information Centers, July
14............................................................. 1231
Testimony of Harvey O'Connor.
State Department Teacher-Student Exchange Program, May 20........ 1235
Testimony of Naphtali Lewis.
State Department Teacher-Student Exchange Program, May 25........ 1245
Testimony of Helen B. Lewis; Naphtali Lewis; and Margaret
Webster.
State Department Teacher-Student Exchange Program, May 26........ 1267
Testimony of Aaron Copland.
State Department Teacher-Student Exchange Program, June 8........ 1291
Testimony of Rachel Davis DuBois; and Dr. Dorothy Ferebee.
State Department Teacher-Student Exchange Program, June 19....... 1305
Testimony of Clarence F. Hiskey.
State Department Teacher-Student Exchange Program, June 19....... 1311
Testimony of Harold C. Urey.
Trade with Soviet-Bloc Countries, May 20......................... 1321
Trade with Soviet-Bloc Countries, May 25......................... 1329
Testimony of Charles S. Thomas; Louis W. Goodkind; Thruston
B. Morton; Kenneth R. Hansen; and Vice Admiral Walter S.
Delaney.
Austrian Incident, June 3........................................ 1349
Testimony of V. Frank Coe.
Austrian Incident, June 5........................................ 1367
Testimony of V. Frank Coe.
Communist Party Activities, Western Pennsylvania, June 17........ 1373
Testimony of Louis Bortz; and Herbert S. Hawkins.
Communist Party Activities, Western Pennsylvania, June 18........ 1395
Testimony of Louis Bortz.
Special Meeting, July 10......................................... 1399
Alleged Bribery of State Department Official, July 13............ 1415
Testimony of Juan Jose Martinez-Locayo.
Internal Revenue, July 31........................................ 1431
Testimony of T. Coleman Andrews.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 10.................. 1439
Testimony of Mary S. Markward; Edward M. Rothschild; Esther
Rothschild; and James B. Phillips.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 11.................. 1473
Testimony of Frederick Sillers; Gertrude Evans; and Charles
Gift.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 11.................. 1497
Testimony of Raymond Blattenberger; and Phillip L. Cole.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 12.................. 1515
Testimony of Ernest C. Mellor; and S. Preston Hipsley.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 13.................. 1527
Testimony of Irving Studenberg.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 13.................. 1533
Testimony of Gertrude Evans; and Charles Gift.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 14.................. 1547
Testimony of Howard Merold; Jack Zucker; Howard Koss; and
Isadore Kornfield.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 15.................. 1563
Testimony of Cleta Guess; James E. Duggan; and Adolphus
Nichols Spence.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 18.................. 1573
Testimony of Roy Hudson Wells, Jr.; and Phillip Fisher.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 19.................. 1577
Testimony of Joseph E. Francis; Samuel Bernstein; and Roscoe
Conkling Everhardt.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 21.................. 1595
Testimony of Florence Fowler Lyons.
Security--Government Printing Office, August 29.................. 1603
Testimony of Alfred L. Fleming; Carl J. Lundmark; Earl Cragg;
and Harry Falk.
Stockpiling and Metal Program, August 21......................... 1615
Statement of Robert C. Miller.
Communist Infiltration Among Army Civilian Workers, August 31.... 1625
Testimony of Doris Walters Powell; Francesco Palmiero; and
Albert E. Feldman.
Communist Infiltration Among Army Civilian Workers, September 1.. 1651
Testimony of Cpt. Donald Joseph Kotch; Stanley Garber; Jacob
W. Allen; Deton J. Brooks, Jr.; Col. Ralph M. Bauknight;
Doris Walters Powell; Francesco Palmiero; Marvel Cooke; and
Paul Cavanna.
Communist Infiltration Among Army Civilian Workers, September 2.. 1695
Testimony of Mary Columbo Palmiero; Col. Wallace W. Lindsay;
Col. Wendell G. Johnson; Maj. Harold N. Krau; Louis Francis
Budenz; Augustin Arrigo; and Muriel Silverberg.
Communist Infiltration Among Army Civilian Workers, September 3.. 1729
Testimony of John Stewart Service; Donald Joseph Kotch;
Michael J. Lynch; and Jacob W. Allen.
Communist Infiltration Among Army Civilian Workers, September 8.. 1745
Testimony of H. Donald Murray.
Communist Infiltration Among Army Civilian Workers, September 9.. 1777
Testimony of Alexander Naimon; John Lautner; Esther Leenov
Ferguson.
STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM--INFORMATION CENTERS
[Editor's note.--The United States Information Service
initially established a ``balanced presentation'' policy under
which books by controversial authors, including Communists,
would be stocked by its overseas libraries to reflect the
diversity of opinion in the United States and to preserve the
intellectual credibility of the collections. In 1952, the
Truman administration judged several books by the novelist
Howard Fast to be Communist propaganda and removed them from
the shelves although his other works remained. In January 1953,
the Eisenhower administration upheld the policy of balanced
collections but set criteria for defining books that might be
excluded.
Between March and July 1953, the Permanent Subcommittee on
Investigations held extensive hearings, in both executive and
public session, that focused on the U.S. Information Libraries
worldwide. It examined the books that the libraries stocked,
and called some of the authors--including Howard Fast--to
testify. During the course of the investigation, chief counsel
Roy Cohn, and chief consultant David Schine, embarked on a
highly-publicized tour of the overseas libraries in major
European capitals, from April 4 to 21. Simultaneously, the
State Department ordered the removal of any books by Communist
authors or Communist sympathizers from the Information
Libraries' shelves. Hundreds of works of fiction and non-
fiction were discarded, and some were burned. In his
commencement address at Dartmouth College on June 13, President
Eisenhower told the students: ``Don't join the book burners.
Don't think you are going to conceal faults by concealing
evidence that they ever existed. Don't be afraid to go in your
library and read every book as long as any document does not
offend our own ideas of decency. That should be the only
censorship.''
Mary M. Kaufman did not testify in public. Sol Auerbach
(who wrote as James S. Allen) and William Marx Mandel appeared
before the subcommittee in a televised public hearing on the
following day. During the open session, the chairman ordered
Mandel to identify publicly his current employer, information
that the witness had provided in executive session with the
request that it be kept confidential. Mandel complained that
the subcommittee had ``arrogated itself the right to exact
punishment, although it is not a court of law and deprives one
of due process of law. That punishment has ranged from fines
ranging from several thousand dollars in the case of people
dismissed up to the fact that you, Senator McCarthy, murdered
Raymond Kaplan by forcing him, driving him to the point where
he jumped under a truck. . . .'']
----------
MONDAY, MARCH 23, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
Committee on Government Operations,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to Senate Resolution 40,
agreed to January 30, 1953, at 3:00 p.m. in room 357 of the
Senate Office Building, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, chairman,
presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin;
Senator Henry M. Jackson, Democrat, Washington; Senator Stuart
Symington, Democrat, Missouri.
Present also: Claude I. Bakewell, former representative
from Missouri; Roy Cohn, chief counsel; Ruth Young Watt, chief
clerk.
Mr. Cohn. Senator, this is William Z. Foster's attorney
Mrs. Kaufman.
Do you have any objection to being sworn, Mrs. Kaufman?
STATEMENT OF MARY M. KAUFMAN, ATTORNEY FOR WILLIAM Z. FOSTER
Mrs. Kaufman. I don't see the necessity to be sworn simply
to explain why he isn't here. The facts I state are matters of
public record.
Senator McClellan. I suggest this, Mr. Chairman. If this is
to be testimony, I think she should be sworn. If you are
willing to accept just a report from her as to why he is not
here, I should think that would be acceptable without her being
sworn.
The Chairman. What are you prepared to present to us?
Mrs. Kaufman. I simply wanted to advise the committee that
Mr. Foster is presently confined to the southern district of
New York under the terms of his bail, and because of that is
unable to appear. Now, that is a matter of public record. When
I reminded Mr. Cohn of the fact, he remembered that that was
so.
In addition, I wanted to advise the committee that Mr.
Foster's health is such as not to permit him to appear before
this committee, and I have a statement from his physician to
that effect. The conclusion of the statement states that ``any
sudden strain or emotional excitation may provoke easily a
fatal cerebral or cardiac incident.'' And under these
circumstances, I would request that he be excused.
The Chairman. May I ask counsel, number one: I assume the
first reason stated could be easily waived by the court.
Mr. Cohn. No doubt about it.
The Chairman. How about number two, the question of
illness?
Mr. Cohn. That has been raised by Mr. Foster for some time,
I believe, since his original indictment in the summer of 1948.
He was granted a severance. There was a reexamination at my
request when I was in the Department of Justice a few months
ago. I am not aware that that motion was ever decided. Was it?
Mrs. Kaufman. I don't believe the government took any
action.
Mr. Cohn. Well, we did. We made a motion for another
physical examination, and I don't know whether there was ever a
ruling on whether he was well enough to stand trial.
Senator McClellan. The first issue raised determines. You
do not have to pass upon the other.
Mr. Cohn. Well, we can get that waived.
Senator McClellan. I understand, but for the moment that
would settle it.
The Chairman. He is definitely not in contempt for not
appearing today.
Well, my thought is that he is not sufficiently important a
witness for the hearing that we should go to the trouble of
finding out whether he is in proper shape to appear or not. I
think the court is going to determine that in connection with
his criminal trial.
Mr. Cohn. I was going to suggest this: Could we get from
Mr. Foster an affidavit answering the questions we want to put
to him?
The Chairman. I think that might be a good idea. There is
no reason why he could not answer questions under oath.
Mrs. Kaufman. I don't know. I would have to consult with
him in order to find out what he can or can not do.
The Chairman. You are a notary public yourself, are you?
Mrs. Kaufman. No, I am not.
The Chairman. Let us leave it this way, then. Counsel can
prepare the interrogatories and submit them to the attorney,
with the orders that Mr. Foster answer them, unless counsel can
produce anything to indicate that that would adversely affect
his health. If no, we will go into that.
Senator McClellan. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the
statement she brought from Mr. Foster and also from his
physician be filed.
Mrs. Kaufman. Yes, I would like to place that in the
record, if I may.
Senator McClellan. That does not have to go in the record.
The Chairman. Those are merely accepted as exhibits.
[A memorandum dated March 21, 1953, signed by Louis V.
Finger, M.D., 1056 Fifth Avenue, New York 28, New York, was
marked Kaufman Exhibit 1 and filed for the information of the
committee.]
The Chairman. I want to thank you very much. And counsel
will prepare interrogatories to be submitted to Mr. Foster, to
be sent to you, and we will want you to have him answer those
and have him swear to them before a notary, unless you can
produce a doctor's certificate offering something that will
prove that that will adversely affect his health. We do not
want to kill off any of the witnesses.
Mrs. Kaufman. I am sure of that, Senator.
The Chairman. I want to thank you very much.
Mrs. Kaufman. I am not in any position to state Mr.
Foster's agreement as to the interrogatories, but nevertheless
we can wait until we receive them to determine what action we
will take.
The Chairman. It will be the order, as I say, that unless
you can produce some medical proof, either a doctor's affidavit
or whatever occurs to you to convince the committee that that
will adversely affect his health, the answers to the
interrogatories will be provided.
Senator Symington. I would suggest that you suggest to Mr.
Foster that he try and answer the interrogatories to the best
of his ability.
Mrs. Kaufman. Will you note my address? I don't think you
took it. It is 43 West 94th Street.
The Chairman. Mr. Allen, will you stand and raise your
right hand? Will you stand, sir?
In this matter now in hearing, do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Auerbach. I do.
The Chairman. Will you identify your counsel?
TESTIMONY OF SOL AUERBACH (JAMES S. ALLEN) (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS
COUNSEL, JOSEPH FORER)
Mr. Auerbach. My counsel is Mr. Joe Forer of Washington.
Mr. Cohn. Is that F-o-r-e-r?
Mr. Auerbach. F-o-r-e-r.
The Chairman. Mr. Allen, under the rules of the
subcommittee, you are entitled to have a conference with your
lawyer at any time you care to. If something comes up which you
think is of such a nature that you want to have a place to
discuss the matter with him confidentially, we will arrange
either another room or some place where you can get some
privacy. We do not allow the attorney to take part in the
proceedings, other than to advise you. If the attorney thinks
that a question is objectionable, he is free to tell you that,
and fully advise you at any time during the proceedings.
Mr. Cohn. Give us your full name, please, Mr. Allen.
Mr. Auerbach. My name is Sol Auerbach, A-u-e-r-b-a-c-h.
Mr. Cohn. And you write under the name of James S. Allen;
is that right?
Mr. Auerbach. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. What is your address?
Mr. Auerbach. 134 East Hudson Street, Long Beach, New York.
Mr. Cohn. What do you want to be called, Mr. Auerbach or
Mr. Allen?
Mr. Auerbach. Either way.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Auerbach. I refuse to answer that, on the basis of my
constitutional privilege.
Senator Symington. You refuse to answer where you are
employed on that basis?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You are employed, are you not, Mr. Allen, at
International Publishers, the official publishing house of the
Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. I refuse to answer that question on the same
ground.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer on the grounds that your
answer might incriminate you?
Mr. Auerbach. That is the reason, as it may be put. I
prefer to say----
Senator McClellan. How do you put it?
Mr. Auerbach. I would say that I have a constitutional
privilege under the Fifth Amendment not to bear witness against
myself and not to be a witness against myself.
The Chairman. You have that privilege, as long as you
honestly believe that if you truthfully answered a question it
might tend to incriminate you. You do not have that privilege
if you would incriminate yourself by perjury, you understand.
It is only if you tell the committee that you honestly feel
that a truthful answer might tend to incriminate you. Then you
have the right to refuse to answer. You understand that?
Mr. Auerbach. I think I understand that.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Allen, let me ask you this: Where was
the subpoena served on you? Just the street address?
Mr. Auerbach. At Fourth Avenue.
Mr. Cohn. 381 Fourth Avenue?
Mr. Auerbach. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the headquarters of the Communist party
of the United States?
Mr. Auerbach. It is not the headquarters of the Communist
party of the United States.
Mr. Cohn. I didn't get that.
Mr. Auerbach. It is not the headquarters of the Communist
party of the United States.
Mr. Cohn. I see. Is that the building in which are located
offices or organizations officially connected with the
Communist party of the United States?
Mr. Auerbach. I think I will refuse to answer that question
on the same grounds previously stated.
Mr. Cohn. Where are the headquarters of the Communist party
located?
Mr. Auerbach. I really don't know.
Mr. Cohn. They moved recently, did they not? You might have
read that in the public press if you do not know it some other
way.
Mr. Auerbach. That is more or less public knowledge, I
think.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Allen, let me ask you this: Has the Communist
party gone underground recently? Is the location of the present
headquarters of the Communist party secret, as far as you know?
Mr. Auerbach. As far as I know, it is no secret.
Mr. Cohn. And you say you can't tell us where it is?
Mr. Auerbach. I just don't happen to know where it is.
Mr. Cohn. Have you visited the Communist party headquarters
recently?
Mr. Auerbach. I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever visit Communist party headquarters?
Mr. Auerbach. I will refrain from answering that, on the
same ground as previously stated.
Mr. Cohn. Are you the author of a book called World
Monopoly and Peace? \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ James S. Allen, World Monopoly and Peace (New York:
International Publishers, 1946).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Auerbach. I am.
Mr. Cohn. And you are the James S. Allen who wrote that
book?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes, that is a copy of the book.
Mr. Cohn. You say it is a copy.
Mr. Auerbach. It is.
Mr. Cohn. Now, I notice that that book is published by
International Publishers. Is that the official publishing house
of the Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. I refuse to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Cohn. When you wrote that book, Mr. Allen, were you a
member of the Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. I refuse to answer that question, on the same
grounds as previously stated.
Mr. Cohn. When did you write that book?
Mr. Auerbach. I wrote that book in '45, I believe, 1945.
Mr. Cohn. At the time you wrote that book, did you favor
the Soviet Union against the United States of America?
Mr. Auerbach. I have always favored the United States of
America.
Mr. Cohn. If the United States of America were at war with
the Soviet Union, would you fight for the United States against
the Soviet Union?
Mr. Auerbach. If we were the victim of aggression, I would.
Mr. Cohn. I didn't ask you the circumstances. I said: If
the United States declared a state of war against the Soviet
Union, would you, as an American citizen, fight against the
Soviet Union?
Mr. Auerbach. I would say that would depend on the
circumstances of the war.
Mr. Cohn. I am not asking about the circumstances of the
war. I asked for a categorical answer. If the Congress of the
United States declared war against the Soviet Union----
Senator Jackson [continuing]. As provided for by the
Constitution.
Mr. Cohn [continuing]. Would you fight for the United
States?
Mr. Auerbach. I have been in the American army and fought
in a war.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't understand my question. If the
Congress of the United States declared war against the Soviet
Union, would you fight for the United States? ``Yes'' or
``no''?
Mr. Auerbach. I cannot conceive of such a war.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I think the witness is
getting very close to contempt of the committee.
Mr. Auerbach. May I consult with my attorney?
[Mr. Auerbach confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I think I have answered the question.
The Chairman. I do not think you have answered.
Mr. Auerbach. May I repeat my answer?
Mr. Cohn. Why don't I repeat the question? It will make it
simpler. The question is this: If the Congress of the United
States, for any reason, as provided by the Constitution, were
to declare war against the Soviet Union, would you fight
against the Soviet Union?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I answered that.
Mr. Cohn. Can we have a ``yes'' or ``no'' answer? That is a
very simple question.
Mr. Auerbach. I can't answer yes or no, because it would
depend on the circumstances of the war. There is not every war
that one would support.
Mr. Cohn. You mean as an American citizen you can conceive
of a war declared by the official representatives of the
Congress of the United States pursuant to the Constitution
which you would not support?
Mr. Auerbach. Which I may think to be an unjust war, not
worthy of the support of a patriotic American. And I think I
would have the privilege to be opposed to that war.
The Chairman. Are there some circumstances under which you
would join the military forces and fight against the Soviet
Union if war were declared?
Mr. Auerbach. I think if we were the victim of aggression
by the Soviet Union or any other power, I would fight for the
defense of the United States.
Senator Symington. If the war, in your opinion, were
unjustified on the part of the United States, would you accept
money to be a spy for a foreign country that was fighting
against the United States?
Mr. Auerbach. I would not.
Senator Symington. Would you be a spy, without money?
Mr. Auerbach. I would not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever engaged in espionage against the
United States?
Mr. Auerbach. I certainly have not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a representative of the
Communist International?
Mr. Auerbach. I must refuse to answer that question on the
same grounds as previously stated.
Mr. Cohn. Did you go to the Philippines for the Communist
International in 1939?
Mr. Auerbach. I must refuse to answer the question, on the
same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Did you take a trip to the Philippines in 1939?
Mr. Auerbach. I refuse to answer, on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Did you take a trip financed by the Communist
party?
Mr. Auerbach. I must refuse to answer, on the same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Did you take a trip to Mexico in the interest of
the Communist International?
Mr. Auerbach. My answer is the same.
Mr. Cohn. Was that trip financed by the Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. My answer remains the same.
Mr. Cohn. Were you foreign editor of the Daily Worker?
Mr. Auerbach. I can't answer that question, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Are you at this time a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Auerbach. I do not answer that question, on the same
ground as previously stated.
Senator Symington. If you are a member of the Communist
party, why are you ashamed or afraid to say so?
Mr. Auerbach. Because the purpose of the question is quite
different. I am not saying that I am or am not a member. I am
not saying I am or am not a member of the Communist party.
Senator Jackson. Are you saying you never were a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. I am refusing to answer that question, on the
ground----
Senator Symington. My point is that all we are trying to do
is clarify who is for or against the United States. It would
have been possible for you to be a member of the Communist
party and then to have felt that was wrong and to have
resigned. What the counsel asked was: Are you a member now? And
you have refused to answer, which, of course makes us believe
that you are a member of the Communist party.
Mr. Auerbach. You have no ground for believing that, on the
basis of my answer.
Senator Symington. Then why are you afraid or ashamed to
answer the question?
Mr. Auerbach. I am not afraid or ashamed.
Senator Symington. Then why do you not answer it?
Mr. Auerbach. I think it violates my constitutional right
under the Fifth Amendment.
Senator Symington. Why do you want to take refuge behind
your constitutional rights unless you are ashamed or afraid of
admitting membership?
Mr. Auerbach. Because the purpose of these questions is
something quite different.
Senator Jackson. What purpose could this committee have but
to properly obtain information with reference to your
activities? You are not incriminating yourself if you say you
are a member of the Communist party. There is nothing that I
know of on the statute books that says that a member of the
Communist party, per se, is in violation of the law. It is only
if you conspire, together with others, to overthrow the
government by force and violence. You could be a member of the
Communist party, if I understand the laws of this country
correctly, and testify here under oath and say you are a
member, but that you do not agree to overthrow of the
government by force and violence, and you would not incriminate
yourself.
The Chairman. I may say, Senator Jackson, that as I
understand the law, merely being a member of the Communist
party does not make you guilty of a crime unless it can be
shown that you are aware of the objectives of the Communist
party.
Senator Jackson. And that you acquiesce in those
objectives.
Mr. Cohn. I don't think it is acquiescence; it is
knowledge.
Senator Jackson. Well, you would have to know about them.
The Chairman. And remaining a member after you know the
objectives.
So that he does have the right, I think, without any doubt.
Senator Jackson. I agree that he has the right.
Senator Symington. I agree that he has the right, but I do
not see why, if he is a member of the Communist party, he is
ashamed or afraid of admitting it.
Senator Jackson. Shall we get an answer to the original
question, about bearing arms?
Mr. Cohn. We never have had a categorical answer to that.
The Chairman. I think maybe he has answered that. He says
he would himself decide what terms and conditions under which
he would serve in the military forces, and while we may
disagree with the answer, I think he has perhaps answered it.
He says he can't answer it ``yes'' or ``no.''
Senator McClellan. May I ask a question?
Do you believe in the overthrow of the United States
government by force and violence?
Mr. Auerbach. I do not.
Senator McClellan. Do you belong to any organization,
political or otherwise, that advocates the overthrow of the
government of the United States by force and violence?
Mr. Auerbach. I do not. In my opinion, I do not belong to
any such organization.
Senator McClellan. In your opinion, you do not. Is that
what you said?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes.
Senator McClellan. I am trying to understand it. Do you
know that the Communist party does favor the overthrow of the
United States government by violence?
Mr. Auerbach. There seems to be quite a lot of difference
on that question, sir.
Senator McClellan. Do you know that it does?
Mr. Auerbach. No. In my opinion they do not.
Senator Jackson. You are familiar with the Supreme Court
decision?
Mr. Auerbach. I am.
Senator Jackson. The last one, the Dennis case, in which
the court so found?
Mr. Auerbach. Nevertheless, there is a great deal of public
opinion that does not agree with that, sir.
Senator McClellan. Is it your opinion that the Communist
party does not advocate the overthrow of the government of the
United States by force and violence?
Mr. Auerbach. That is my opinion, sir.
Senator McClellan. You state that under oath?
Mr. Auerbach. I state that under oath.
Senator McClellan. On the contrary, do you not know, when I
ask you to state that under oath, that it does advocate the
overthrow of the United States government by force and
violence? Do you not know it?
Mr. Auerbach. I think I answered your question, Senator.
Senator McClellan. I do not think you did.
Mr. Auerbach. I gave you my opinion.
Senator McClellan. You gave me your opinion. I ask you now
if you do not know it. Not an opinion, but do you not know it?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe that they do not stand for violent
overthrow of the government by force and violence.
Senator McClellan. Then you mean to state by that answer
that you do not know it?
Mr. Auerbach. That is not what I said, sir.
Senator McClellan. Well, do you say you do know it, or do
not know it?
Mr. Auerbach. According to my knowledge, they do not stand
for the violent overthrow of the government.
Senator McClellan. Then, according to your knowledge, they
do not. Then you mean you do not know it. Is that what you are
saying? I know it has got you a little worried, but I am asking
you: Do you know it?
Mr. Auerbach. I am not worried, Senator. I am trying to
understand your question.
Senator McClellan. You do understand it. I asked you: Do
you not know it? And you said you ``believe.'' I am asking you,
contrary to what you say you believe, if you do not know it as
a matter of fact that you have personal knowledge of.
[Mr. Auerbach confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Auerbach. I do not know it.
Senator McClellan. All right. You say you do not know it.
Mr. Auerbach. I do not.
Senator Jackson. And do you know whether in the past the
Communist party has advocated the overthrow of the government
by force and violence?
Mr. Auerbach. I do not believe it has.
Senator Jackson. That is your opinion?
Mr. Auerbach. That is my opinion.
Senator Jackson. And that is what you believe?
Mr. Auerbach. That is what I believe.
Senator Symington. Mr. Allen, I am interested in this. Do
you believe that the Communist party is run from Moscow?
Mr. Auerbach. My belief is that it is not run from Moscow.
Senator Symington. Do you believe the Communist party in
this country runs itself? Or is it run from Moscow?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe it runs itself.
Senator Symington. It runs itself, without any control from
Moscow?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe there is no control from Moscow.
Senator Symington. Do you believe in the anti-Semitic
purges that have recently developed in the countries behind the
Iron Curtain? Do you approve of that?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't believe there are anti-Semitic
purges.
Senator Symington. You do not believe there are anti-
Semitic purges?
Mr. Auerbach. No.
Senator Symington. You think that is just propaganda on the
part of the capitalistic press?
Mr. Auerbach. I think that it is misinformation about the
situation, combined with propaganda, which is quite appropriate
to the cold war from the viewpoint of those who would like to
wage that war.
Senator Symington. So if I follow you, you believe that
these reports about anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union and its
satellites are incorrect. Is that right?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe they are absolutely incorrect.
Senator McCllelan. You said, now, that you do not believe
that the Communist party in the United States is run by Moscow
or controlled from Russia. Now I want to ask you the question.
Do you not know that it is?
Mr. Auerbach. I do not know.
Senator Jackson. In your opinion, is the Communist party in
the United States under any orders from outside the United
States?
Mr. Auerbach. In my opinion, it is under no orders.
Senator Jackson. Has it been in the past?
Mr. Auerbach. I do not believe it has.
Senator Jackson. Has Jacques Duclos ever had any influence
on operations of the Communist party of the United States.
Mr. Auerbach. As far as I know, he has had no direct
influence over it. I would like to make it clear that I am no
authority on the question.
Senator Jackson. Was Browder removed by totally an American
action, or was he removed by reason of action taken by the
Cominform in 1945? Can you answer the question?
Mr. Auerbach. I think that action was taken here.
Senator Jackson. Did the Cominform or other similar
apparatus of the International Communist Organization have
anything to do with action taken here?
Mr. Auerbach. Mr. Chairman, may I make a comment at this
point?
The Chairman. Certainly.
Mr. Auerbach. I am not clear what this committee is after.
I know that this is a subcommittee for the investigation of
government operations, and I assumed that when I received the
subpoena it was in connection with such investigations.
The Chairman. You are entitled to inquire the purpose of
the question. I will inform you of the purpose.
We are presently investigating the background of some of
the individuals who have been doing work for the Voice of
America information program. We find that your works have been
used. We appropriate, oh, a huge amount of money. I think the
budget this year calls for $100-million some-odd to fight
communism throughout the world. So we are curious to know what
Communist authors or members of the Communist party are being
utilized in this fight, and the purpose of their being used. We
must inquire into your background therefor.
Senator Jackson. We want to inquire into the operation of
the Communist party, your knowledge of it, here and abroad as
it affects the program.
The Chairman. That is correct.
Senator Jackson. Now, did you answer the question I put to
you a moment ago?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I would like to make it clear that my
answer to any of these questions is merely the opinion of an
individual, and that for expert knowledge on the matter you
would have to seek somewhere else.
Senator Jackson. I understand you to say under oath that
you have no knowledge of the workings of the Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. I did not say that.
Senator Jackson. Well, can you answer that question?
Mr. Auerbach. I claim my privilege under the Fifth
Amendment.
Senator Symington. Will you yield a minute there?
Senator Jackson. Yes.
Senator Symington. You appear questioning, or irritated or
resentful, at the questions that are asked you, and you want to
make a statement. I feel irritated, questioning, and resentful
to any American citizen who is asked up here questions with
respect to the Communist party and either is ashamed or so
afraid or so arrogant with respect to the right of the Congress
that he does not answer those questions, does not want to
answer them, on the grounds that it might violate his rights
under the Fifth Amendment. I want to make very clear to you my
position with respect to your testimony. And I do not think
anybody is more anxious to have civil rights and civil
liberties perpetuated under our system.
Mr. Auerbach. Senator, may I comment on what you say?
Senator Symington. You certainly can.
Mr. Auerbach. I am not disrespectful of the Congress of the
United States. I have no feeling of arrogance, in my attitude.
In my opinion it seems quite clear that anticommunism has
served as a cover for a struggle against and a suppression of
civil liberties. That is my position. And therefore I don't
want in any way to further such aims. Anticommunism has
historically served that purpose abroad. It served it in
Germany. It served it in Italy. It served it in Japan. And it
is serving it here.
Senator Jackson. And communism in Russia serves to promote
civil liberties?
Mr. Auerbach. I think they have aims of their own that are
quite apart from the aims of----
The Chairman. The question was: Do you think that the
Communists are promoting the cause of civil liberties?
Mr. Auerbach. I think they are. I think there are liberties
in the Soviet Union which we don't enjoy here.
Senator Jackson. Can you say what right--I am not talking
now about what may be in some document--what right a citizen
has in the Soviet Union to a trial by jury?
Mr. Auerbach. He has quite a number of rights of trial that
would be surprising to many Americans. There are courts, from
the lowest branches of the judiciary to the very highest where
a citizen has an opportunity to be heard by a jury of his peers
and by judges chosen by himself.
The Chairman. Do you think the judicial system in Communist
Russia is superior to the judicial system in this country?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't think it is a question of superior or
not. A judicial system meets certain needs.
The Chairman. The question originally asked of you, Mr.
Allen, was whether you felt that communism was serving the
cause of promoting civil liberties, and then you went into the
judicial system. My question now is: Do you think the judicial
system in Russia is superior to that of this country in so far
as the preservation of civil liberties is concerned?
Mr. Auerbach. I think that they are very much concerned
with the preservation of civil liberties in their judicial
system as well as under the Constitution.
Senator Jackson. Hitler made some announcements, too, that
they were concerned about them, but they did not have them.
The Chairman. Would you fight, if you were called upon to
fight, today, in the Korean War, on our side, if a draft board
called you up?
Mr. Auerbach. I am opposed to that war. I think it is an
unjust war.
Senator McClellan. On whose part is it unjust? On America's
part? Or on that of Red China?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I believe that we had no business over
there.
Senator McClellan. Do you think that Red China has any
business in there?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe we were there before Red China was
there.
Senator McClellan. That is right. What is your position as
to Red China? Do you think she is fighting an unjust war?
Mr. Auerbach. I think Red China is probably concerned with
her security. If we had a foreign power down in Mexico or in
Cuba, we would be very much concerned about it.
Senator McClellan. Is there any position you can take that
would at all criticize or condemn communism in the Soviet
Union? Is there one single criticism you have of it? Can you
think of one?
Mr. Auerbach. There might be various criticisms of
something.
Senator McClellan. There might be, and if you can think of
them, I would like to have you put it on the record right now.
Mr. Auerbach. You would very much like to see that,
Senator.
Senator McClellan. Yes, I would like to see it, if you have
any criticism at all; if you are a good American, as you say,
and have any criticism of it, I would like you to place it on
the record.
Mr. Auerbach. But my concern is this country, not the
Soviet Union. I am an American citizen, born in the United
States and interested in this country.
Senator McClellan. That is your words. But I might say to
you your actions do not conform to your words.
Mr. Auerbach. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am
entitled to mine.
The Chairman. I am going to order the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Allen, you were asked whether you could think of any
criticism of communism. Your works were being used, you see, by
the information program to fight communism. So if you have any
criticism of communism, Mr. McClellan wants to know what that
criticism is. You are ordered to answer that question. If you
have no criticism, you can tell us.
Mr. Auerbach. You say to be used by the information
program?
The Chairman. You understand our government is paying for
your works.
Mr. Auerbach. I didn't know that.
The Chairman. Well, let me tell you they are. They are
distributing your books for the purpose of fighting communism.
Now, in view of the fact that your works are being used to
fight communism, I think Senator McClellan's question is very
pertinent. His question is: Can you think of any criticism
which you have of communism? If so, tell us what it is.
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I believe any criticism that I might
have of communism as a system of society would pertain to the
speed of its development and how effectively it meets the
requirements of a socialist and a Communist society. That is,
in other words, that it wouldn't fall within the framework of
the questioning, the line of questioning, that is being
developed here.
The Chairman. In other words, you have no criticism of the
objectives of communism. You merely might criticize the speed
with which they are arriving at the objectives?
Mr. Auerbach. I am all for the objectives of socialism and
communism, and I believe that is the form of society that we
will come to, too.
Senator McClellan. So you are an advocate of communism and
you say this country is ultimately coming to communism. Is that
correct? Is that not what you just said?
Mr. Auerbach. That is my opinion as a student of history,
that we will develop along that line.
Senator McClellan. That is what I want. That is your
opinion. You favor the Communist objectives, and you believe
they are coming to America. Is that your statement?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe that when the majority of the
American people want it, they will get it, and nothing will
stop them.
Senator McClellan. That is not the question. The question
was this: As I understood you, your answer was that you believe
in the objectives of communism. Did you say that, or not?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe that the objectives of Communist
society are just and proper for the world as a whole, and we
will eventually obtain them.
The Chairman. Then you would feel that one of your
functions, as a loyal American, would be to promote the cause
of communism?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't believe that that is a problem we
face at the moment, and I don't believe that it is a realistic
objective to hold forth at the moment. If a time should arise
that socialism, as a first stage of communism, should become
the order of the day, then it will be up to the American people
to decide that.
The Chairman. You apparently do not understand my question,
or maybe you prefer not to answer it. You have told us that you
favor the objectives of the Communist movement, and you think
it is essentially just, et cetera. My question is then, this:
Do you then feel, as a loyal American, that one of your tasks
is to further the cause of communism, so that we may ultimately
have a Communist society in the United States?
Mr. Auerbach. I think it is my duty as a loyal American to
support what I believe is best for the people. And at the
present moment, what is best for the people is that we have
peace, that we protect our democratic rights. Those are the
immediate objectives that stare us in the face right now.
The Chairman. You understand, Mr. Allen, I am not trying to
tell you what you should advocate. I am not trying to tell you
that communism as you view it is right or wrong, that is, for
the purposes of this examination I am not. You are entitled to
think whatever you care to think. You are entitled to work for
a socialistic state in this country, if you work for it without
an attempt to overthrow this government by force and violence.
I am merely trying to find out what you do advocate, you see.
Now, do I understand that your feeling is that the
Communist state is superior to our capitalistic form of
government?
Mr. Auerbach. If I may, I would like to answer you as a
student of history and not as a political worker or as one who
is directing his answer to what is politically feasible at this
particular moment. As a student of history, it seems to me that
all of society will develop in that direction. Whatever form it
might take in this country, I don't know. I don't think anybody
could tell you what form it would take.
The Chairman. I am going to insist that you answer that
question.
Mr. Auerbach. That is my answer, sir.
The Chairman. Will you read the question, Mr. Reporter?
[The reporter read the pending question.]
Mr. Auerbach. Yes. As I have explained, I think that a
Communist state would be superior to a capitalist state.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this. Do you feel that
communism as practiced in Russia today is superior to our form
of government?
Mr. Auerbach. I would say that communism as practiced in
Russia today is superior to any previous form of government.
Now, it may be that communism as it will be practiced here some
time in the future may be superior to that.
Senator Jackson. He has not answered the question.
The Chairman. I will insist that you answer the question.
Mr. Auerbach. As a form of society, I think it is
superior--I am answering your question directly, Senator--I
think it is superior, because of the fact that exploitation is
no longer there, that the society is not run for profit, and
that it does open the way to a form of society where everyone
can give according to his ability and receive according to his
need.
Senator McClellan. Do you associate with that view an
expression on slave labor camps in Russia?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe that is the part of the cold war
propaganda
Senator Jackson. You do not believe it exists?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe that they have penal camps, and
that they have a form of prison reform which might include
labor camps.
Senator Jackson. Do you think the slave labor camps in the
Soviet Union are examples relating to penal reform?
Mr. Auerbach. From what I know, it seems to me that they
are work camps where they attempt to rehabilitate prisoners,
and so on.
Senator Jackson. It is to rehabilitate them, to build them
up, that these slave labor camps are maintained?
Mr. Auerbach. According to my information on the subject.
The Chairman. Were you acquainted with Reed Harris?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't know the name at all.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Auerbach. Reed Harris? No. I don't know the name, sir.
The Chairman. Have you read the newspapers lately about Mr.
Reed Harris, who was connected with the information program?
Mr. Auerbach. No.
The Chairman. That name does not strike a bell?
Mr. Auerbach. It doesn't strike any chord, no.
The Chairman. Do you recall that you ever addressed a
meeting at which Reed Harris was one of the speakers, and Mr.
Donald Henderson was the other speaker?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't recall any such meeting.
Mr. Cohn. November 25,1932, involving a Professor Leo
Gallagher, who had been expelled from the faculty of the
University of California.
Mr. Auerbach. I don't recall any such meeting.
The Chairman. Does that name ``Gallagher'' refresh your
recollection?
Mr. Auerbach. It does not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Donald Henderson?
Mr. Auerbach. I will refuse to answer that, on the ground
of----
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Oakley Johnson?
Mr. Auerbach. The same answer there.
Mr. Cohn. Do you deny that you, Henderson, Johnson, and
Reed Harris addressed this meeting?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't deny it. I just don't recall such a
meeting.
Senator Symington. Recently a man died, Stalin. Do you
think he was a great man?
Mr. Auerbach. I certainly do. I think he was a great man.
Senator Symington. Once he was supposed to have been asked
how many people he had to kill in order to effect the Kulak
revolution in Russia. And he answered, presumably: ``Ten
million in four years. It was awful.'' Do you think there was
anything in that question and answer?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't know what authority you are quoting,
Senator. It sounds to me like the kind of question and answer
that someone would use who had some other purpose in mind.
Senator Symington. Well, it was in Time magazine, and I
read it, and I just wondered what you thought of it. You do
think, in order to have a society like there is in Russia
today, it is proper to starve or kill people to any great
extent to get it? Do you think it is worth that much? Would you
be in favor of the purges that have gone on in Russia in order
to get what is in Russia?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, you are asking me something that is
very difficult to answer.
Senator Symington. I see that.
Mr. Auerbach. It is very difficult.
Senator Symington. But my impression was that you felt that
in Russia today they had a better system than we have here. Do
you think that the means that they went to to get that system,
which involved the destruction of a great deal of property and
a great many lives, was proper, under the man that you say you
think was a very great man?
Mr. Auerbach. I think that a great deal of that has been
exaggerated. But undoubtedly there was a great deal of violence
connected with the revolution in Russia, as there is in any
revolution.
Senator Symington. And since the revolution? Would you say
since the revolution?
Mr. Auerbach. And undoubtedly there was some since the
revolution, although I think that a great deal of that is
exaggerated and used for propaganda purposes.
Senator Jackson. In other words, if there is anything that
is really adverse that comes out in the paper about the Soviet
Union, you think for the most part that is pretty much
propaganda?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I wouldn't put it that way at all. I
think that a great deal of it is propaganda, and a great deal
of it is a part of the so called psychological war of nerves.
Senator Symington. Would you be willing to undertake a
reasonable amount of purging in this country in order to get
our system up to the standard of the Soviet Union?
Mr. Auerbach. I would not be willing to undertake anything
of the kind.
Senator Symington. So that you think it could be right over
there and wrong over here; is that it?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I believe this country has a different
future ahead of it, and that its development will take place on
a basis of what is here, not what took place in the Soviet
Union or anywhere else.
Senator Jackson. You have stated, Mr. Allen, that when a
majority of the people of the United States desire the
Communist form of government, they will have it. Are you
suggesting to the committee that that is the way communism
comes into being in a given country?
Mr. Auerbach. What I am suggesting is that I believe that
communism--By the way, in order to have our terms straight,
when I speak of communism, strictly speaking, that is not the
form of society they have in the Soviet Union.
Senator Jackson. I know. I will come to that in a minute.
Mr. Auerbach. What they have there is a form of socialism.
And when that was established, in 1917, as you know, it was the
result of a revolution, and a rather violent revolution. Not
that it was the will of the Russian Communists that it should
take place that way.
As you know, there were others that were interested in
preventing that revolution.
Senator Jackson. Can you name a country where a majority of
the people have voted for communism, have voted it in?
Mr. Auerbach. I believe that the majority of the people in
old Russia wanted it, or they wouldn't have had it. It would
have been impossible for them to obtain power.
Senator Jackson. Can you name a country where the majority
of the people voted in communism? You testified here earlier
that when a majority of the American people wanted communism
they would have it, and you have also testified that you are
opposed to using force and violence to achieve that objective.
Mr. Auerbach. That all depends on what you mean by ``voted
in.'' Well, the actual process may not have been through the
ballot; that is, a voting in.
Senator Jackson. Well, how is it going to come into being?
Mr. Auerbach. That depends on what the circumstances in the
country are. I certainly am no soothsayer and don't know how
things are going to happen here.
Senator Jackson. Let us see if I can get your position
straight, because I think this is important. Do you believe
that the Communist society, as distinguished from the Soviet
Union--You are talking about the communist society as an ideal
objective. I assume that is it.
Mr. Auerbach. The next stage of social development, yes.
Senator Jackson. Do you say that that should come into
existence in a given country through the normal democratic
process? Or should it come into being through the use of force
and violence?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I would say that it can come into being
through the normal democratic process. I don't see any reason
why it can't.
Senator Jackson. Has it ever so come into being in any
country?
Mr. Auerbach. Unless there is such opposition to it----
Senator Jackson. Has it ever come into being in a country
without force or violence?
Mr. Auerbach. That all depends. Now, China, of course, is
not a socialist country.
Senator Jackson. What is it?
Mr. Auerbach. It is what is known as a people's democracy,
and it is on the way to socialism.
Senator Jackson. It is a people's democracy. Well, I would
like for you, if you can, for the benefit of this committee, to
give us one country where communism has come in by the means
that you apparently advocate, namely, peaceful means.
Mr. Auerbach. Well, the Soviets took power largely by
peaceful means.
Senator Jackson. You are a student of history. That is why
I ask you the question.
Mr. Auerbach. It took part largely by peaceful means. The
violence took place after the taking of power, largely.
Senator Jackson. I take it that your testimony is that the
present regime in Russia, and the previous regime, came into
existence by reason of the utilization of peaceful means. I
believe that is your testimony. Is that your testimony?
Mr. Auerbach. In Russia, in general, yes. That is what took
place.
Senator Jackson. And you are a student of history.
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I consider myself something of a
student of history.
Senator Jackson. And how did it come into being in
Czechoslovakia?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, it came after a war, did it not?
Senator Jackson. I say, did it come by democratic process?
Mr. Auerbach. It came after a war, and the Czechoslovakian
government was established by a democratic process.
Senator Jackson. Which government are you talking about?
The Communist government?
Mr. Auerbach. The one that is in power now.
Senator Jackson. And they have a democratic government in
Czechoslovakia?
Mr. Auerbach. They have a people's form of democracy.
Senator Jackson. And communism came into being in
Czechoslovakia, or what you call a people's form of democracy,
through peaceful, democratic means?
Mr. Auerbach. That is what took place throughout eastern
Europe.
Senator Jackson. Will you answer the question?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes.
Senator Jackson. It came by peaceful means?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes.
Senator Jackson. And it took place in the Soviet Union the
same way?
Mr. Auerbach. Not in exactly the same form.
Senator Jackson. By peaceful means, though?
Mr. Auerbach. It came into power peacefully.
Senator Jackson. You are a marvelous student of history.
Senator McClellan. You said it came into power in Russia by
peaceful means, and that the violence took place afterwards, I
believe?
Mr. Auerbach. The violence took place, and a counter-
revolution arose.
Senator McClellan. The violence you refer to: Do you
associate the purges with that?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I don't know what you mean by
``purges,'' Senator.
Senator Jackson. The Czar gave up peacefully?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, the Czar was out. You know, the Czar
wasn't there when the Soviets took power.
Senator Jackson. I am talking about the Czarist regime.
Mr. Auerbach. He had already been executed.
Senator Jackson. But that was a peaceful execution?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, he had been executed while the Kerensky
government was in power.
Senator Jackson. And how did they get rid of the Kerensky
government?
Mr. Auerbach. They were voted out by the congress of
Soviets.
Senator McClellan. They were voted out by bullets, were
they not?
Mr. Auerbach. Well, they are the ones that brought bullets
in, weren't they? They were the ones that organized the
counter-revolutionary elements.
Senator Jackson. You are familiar with the statement in
Pravda recently, in which they announced that there is a
Zionist plot in the Soviet Union. Do you go along with that
statement?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't know all the circumstances involved
there, and I haven't followed that too closely. But I do know
this, that over a long period of years the Communists in the
Soviet Union have fought Zionism. And this is nothing new in
their policy.
Senator Jackson. And are you in favor of that?
Mr. Auerbach. Zionism as a reactionary form of
nationalism--it does have its dangerous aspects.
Senator Jackson. You are opposed to Zionism as such?
Mr. Auerbach. I am opposed to Zionism as a philosophy and a
program, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever disagree with anything in Pravda
that you read?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't read Pravda.
The Chairman. You say you do not read Pravda?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't read Pravda.
Mr. Cohn. You read translations of articles from Pravda
don't you?
Mr. Auerbach. Very occasionally. Those that are reported in
the newspaper.
The Chairman. When you were foreign editor of the Daily
Worker, did you ever read translations of articles from Pravda?
Mr. Auerbach. May I consult with my lawyer?
[Mr. Auerbach confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Auerbach. I will refuse to answer that question,
Senator, on the grounds previously indicated.
Senator McClellan. I have one more question, Mr. Chairman.
I believe in the beginning of your testimony you refused to
answer whether you were a Communist or not, on the ground that
it might incriminate you.
Mr. Auerbach. Substantially, yes.
Senator McClellan. In view of the admissions you have made
here with respect to your views, do you now insist that it
might incriminate you if you answer that question?
Mr. Auerbach. You mean if you were to ask me the question
now?
Senator McClellan. I will ask it again, and ask you whether
you think it would incriminate you now, in view of the
testimony you have already given.
Are you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. My answer would remain the same as
previously.
Senator McClellan. You refuse to answer on the ground that
it might incriminate you?
Mr. Auerbach. On the ground of my constitutional privilege
under the Fifth Amendment.
Senator McClellan. Well, are you sincere in believing it
might incriminate you if you answered truthfully?
Mr. Auerbach. If I answered truthfully and sincerely.
Senator McClellan. I ask you now: Are you of the opinion
that it might incriminate you if you answered the question
truthfully?
Mr. Auerbach. May I consult?
[Mr. Auerbach confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Auerbach. It might tend to.
The Chairman. That was not the question.
Senator McClellan. No, I am asking you if you are sincere--
--
Mr. Auerbach. I am sincere.
Senator McClellan [continuing]. In making the statement
that you are afraid it might incriminate you.
Mr. Auerbach. That it might tend to incriminate me, yes.
Senator McClellan. Do you think it would add any particular
force to the testimony you have already given as to whether you
are a Communist or not?
Mr. Auerbach. I don't quite understand your question.
Senator McClellan. In other words, do you not think you
have already admitted in the record that you subscribe to all
of the philosophy and the objectives of communism? Have you not
already admitted it?
Mr. Auerbach. What I have done, of course, is discuss my
opinions and my beliefs.
Senator McClellan. You have pointed out that there is a
difference in your opinion----
Mr. Auerbach. I believe it was Senator McCarthy who said I
had a right to any opinion or belief.
Senator McClellan. You have. I am not questioning that.
What I am saying is: Is there any difference between the
beliefs you have expressed, and communism? You say you do not
want to answer whether you are a Communist or not. Can you
point out any difference in the opinions you have expressed
here as your beliefs, and what the Communist party stands for?
Can you point out any?
[Mr. Auerbach confers with Mr. Forer.]
Senator McClellan. I would like for the record to show a
long consultation with counsel.
Mr. Auerbach. Well, I have discussed my beliefs, stated my
beliefs.
Senator McClellan. I agree with you.
Mr. Auerbach. But when a question of being a member or not
being a member of the Communist party is raised, that is on
another order. That is an organizational question.
Senator McClellan. I am asking you now, in view of the
beliefs that you have expressed here for the record, and on the
record: Can you point out any difference between those beliefs
and the beliefs of communism and what the Communist party
stands for? Can you point out any difference? In all fairness
to you, if there is some reason why you do not want to admit
you are a Communist, can you point out any difference between
what you have expressed here on the record and what communism
stands for, and its objectives?
Mr. Auerbach. May I consult?
[Mr. Auerbach confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Auerbach. Well, we are getting to very fine points
here. My answer would be, ``No.''
Senator McClellan. I thank you very much.
Mr. Auerbach. We are merely within the realm of belief,
talking about opinions and beliefs.
Senator Jackson. In other words, you believe in the
objectives and the things that the Communist party stands for?
Mr. Auerbach. Its general objectives, yes.
Senator Jackson. Of the Communist party, as we know it?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes.
The Chairman. Let me ask this: If the Communist party
objectives could not be achieved in this country by peaceful
means, would you favor achieving them by force and violence?
Mr. Auerbach. That is one of those ``iffy'' questions about
the future that one never knows how it is going to turn out. I
am not in favor of achieving it by force and violence, and I
would like to see it achieved as peacefully as possible. I
would certainly work for that.
The Chairman. I think you can answer that question. As I
say, we are interested in this, because you are one of the men
whose books are being used to fight communism throughout the
world, believe it or not.
Mr. Auerbach. That is news to me. I would like to know how
that happened.
Senator Jackson. The chairman might have placed the witness
in serious trouble, if the Communist party finds out he has
been used to fight them. He will be up for disloyalty.
The Chairman. In view of the fact that you are being used,
and we are paying money to buy your books, to fight communism,
I think we are entitled to an answer to that question. That is
this: If you can not achieve a Communist society in this
country by peaceful means, if it is found to be impossible,
then would you favor using force to accomplish that objective?
Mr. Auerbach. I would answer that question by saying I am
not in favor of using force and violence to obtain that
objective. As to the alternative you place, I am in no
position, nor is anyone else in position to know.
The Chairman. I am going to insist that you answer that. I
say: If you could not achieve a Communist society in this
country by peaceful means, if you find that is impossible, then
would you favor achieving it by force and violence? The only
grounds upon which I would let you avoid answering that is if
you say that the answer will tend to incriminate you.
[Mr. Auerbach confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Auerbach. I can't answer the question, because I have
no opinion on it. I haven't thought about it, and I haven't
tried to determine an answer to that question. I just don't
have any opinion.
The Chairman. In other words, at this time you say you do
not know whether you would favor using force and violence to
establish a Communist society in this country, if it could not
be done by peaceful means? You say you cannot answer that. You
do not know.
Mr. Auerbach. I can't answer it, because one does not know
just what kind of circumstances would arise, how a question
like that would arise. I have given it no thought and have no
opinion on it.
Senator McClellan. You are not willing to say under oath at
this time that you would not?
Mr. Auerbach. I am not willing to say under oath anything
on the question, because I do not know.
The Chairman. At Communist meetings, did you ever discuss
the necessity of establishing a Communist society in America by
using force and violence?
Mr. Auerbach. I will have to claim my privilege on that,
sir,
The Chairman. Did you know anyone on the Daily Worker,
ever, at any time, who was not a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Auerbach. I will have to claim my privilege on that
one, too, sir.
The Chairman. Your testimony under oath is that you do not
know Reed Harris?
Mr. Auerbach. I do not recall him in any way.
Senator McClellan. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, you further
identify Reed Harris, the position he now holds, where he went
to school, and the meetings attended. Let us see if we cannot
refresh his memory.
The Chairman. Reed Harris, according to the testimony
heretofore taken before this committee, attended Columbia
University and was expelled or suspended. He had been editor of
the Spectator. He appeared at a meeting at Columbia to defend
Don Henderson, who was about to lose his contract as a teacher.
Henderson, at that time, was identified as a Communist. He is
the man who has been identified as having appeared on a
platform with you, Oakley Johnson, Donald Henderson, to defend
Mr. Gallagher, Mr. Leo Gallagher, a professor being expelled
from the University of California because of Communist
activities. He has been active in the WPA, the Writers Project,
has worked under Alsberg, is now the deputy administrator of
the International Information Administration. With that
information, is it your testimony that you have no recollection
now of ever having met him?
Mr. Auerbach. That is my testimony. I have no recollection
of ever having met him, nor do I have a recollection of the
meeting that you referred to.
The Chairman. Did you know Owen Lattimore?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes, I think I met him at one meeting. That
is, I am not quite sure, but at a previous hearing that
question was asked me, and I was shown a memorandum saying that
such a meeting was held, at which he was present and I was
present, and I assume that if there was such a memorandum--it
was many years ago--it was so. I just didn't recollect having
met him.
The Chairman. What meeting was that? Where was it held?
Mr. Auerbach. That was a meeting of the IPR.
Mr. Chairman. And that was the only meeting you ever
attended with Owen Lattimore?
Mr. Auerbach. Yes, if he was there, and I assume he was.
The Chairman. Is it your testimony that you never received
instructions, either directly or indirectly, to your knowledge,
from Moscow, so far as Communist activities were concerned?
Mr. Auerbach. I will claim my privilege on that.
The Chairman. I think I have no further questions of this
witness at this time.
You will be requested, or perhaps I should say ordered, to
appear tomorrow morning at 10:15 in this room. And that will be
a public hearing. You will have the same rights as far as
counsel is concerned as you have today.
Mr. Cohn. I think you have another witness, Mr. Forer.
Mr. Forer. Shall I bring him in?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
The Chairman. Will, you raise your right hand, sir?
In this matter now in hearing before the committee, do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Mandel. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Give us your full name, please.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM MARX MANDEL (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH FORER)
Mr. Mandel. William Marx Mandel.
Mr. Cohn. Is that M-a-r-x?
Mr. Mandel. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. And where do you reside?
Mr. Mandel. 545 West 164th Street, New York City.
The Chairman. Is that the name you have always gone under?
Mr. Mandel. I refuse to answer that question, under my
privilege within the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, not
to testify against myself.
The Chairman. May I ask this question? Is that the name
that you bore when you were, we will say, one year old? If you
think it will incriminate you, you may refuse to answer.
Mr. Mandel. I will stick to the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. In other words, you say if you tell us what
your name was when you were a year old, it might tend to
incriminate you?
Mr. Mandel. Well, it is quite obvious that carried up to
the present day, it may lead to something which might tend to
incriminate me.
The Chairman. Well, it is a broad privilege.
Senator Jackson. Is this your true name, that you gave the
committee?
Mr. Mandel. That is my true name.
Senator Jackson. Your true name. And what was your full
name, again?
Mr. Mandel. William Marx Mandel, M-a-n-d-e-l.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: Have you written under
pseudonyms?
Mr. Mandel. I will have to give the same reply.
The Chairman. You refuse to answer on the ground that it
might incriminate you?
Mr. Mandel. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Are you the author of Soviet Far East and Central
Asia, Mr. Mandel \2\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ William Mandel, The Soviet Far East and Central Asia (New York,
International Secretariat, Institute of Pacific Relations, 1944).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Mandel. I am.
Mr. Cohn. When did you write that book?
Mr. Mandel. Well, I think I wrote most of it in 1942, and I
think some of the additional material came in 1943, '42-'43.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Communist party in 1942-
43?
Mr. Mandel. I must refuse to answer that question, under my
privilege within the Fifth Amendment not to be a witness
against myself.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever engaged in espionage?
Mr. Mandel. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know of any Communists who ever did engage
in espionage or any related activity?
Mr. Mandel. I don't understand ``related activity.''
Mr. Cohn. I will withdraw that. Did you know of any
Communists who have engaged in espionage?
Mr. Mandel. No.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party today?
The Chairman. The question is: Are you a member of the
Communist party as of today?
Mr. Mandel. I refuse to answer under the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever engaged in sabotage or any other
illegal act against the United States?
Mr. Mandel. I refuse to answer under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Will you separate the question?
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever engaged in sabotage against the
United States?
Mr. Mandel. I refuse to answer under the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever violated any law of the United
States?
The Chairman. I don't think that is a proper question.
Senator Jackson. Beyond the scope of the committee.
The Chairman. Mr. Mandel, have you ever been convicted of
any crime?
[Mr. Mandel confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Mandel. Will you repeat the question, please?
The Chairman. The question was: Were you ever convicted of
a crime?
Mr. Mandel. If disorderly conduct be regarded as such--I
think it is a misdemeanor--the answer is ``yes.''
Mr. Cohn. In connection with what? That is a matter of
public record, I suppose. In connection with a demonstration or
riot or something?
Mr. Mandel. No, the answer is that I was selling a
pamphlet, about twenty-odd years ago, or perhaps not that long
ago.
Mr. Cohn. What was the pamphlet?
Mr. Mandel. The pamphlet was called ``The Truth about
Father Coughlin.''
The Chairman. And you were arrested at that time and
convicted of disorderly conduct?
Mr. Mandel. That is my recollection.
The Chairman. And that is the only time that you were
either arrested and convicted of any crime?
Mr. Mandel. Other than traffic violations, or things of
that kind. That is the best of my recollection.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Louis F. Budenz.
Mr. Mandel. Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Would you fight for the United States against the
Soviet Union in the event the United States Congress declared
war against the Soviet Union?
Mr. Mandel. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Under any circumstances?
Mr. Mandel. If the United States Congress declared war,
yes.
Mr. Cohn. You would. Do you believe that our cause in Korea
is a just cause?
Mr. Mandel. No.
Mr. Cohn. You do not?
Mr. Mandel. No.
Mr. Cohn. Would you fight on the side of the United States
and the United Nations in Korea?
Mr. Mandel. Under the laws of the country, if required to,
yes.
The Chairman. Do you think the cause of the North Koreans
and the Chinese Communists is a just cause in Korea?
[Mr. Mandel confers with Mr. Forer.]
Mr. Mandel. The answer is ``yes.''
The Chairman. It is a just cause?
Mr. Mandel. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. That is very interesting. What did you say your
occupation was at the present time?
Mr. Mandel. Let me preface my reply, and I will answer the
question if you insist. My occupation at the present time has,
as will be evident if you press me, no conceivable relation to
any business before this committee. Therefore, to request
this--and I will answer it if you press me--can only have the
effect, if this is later made public, of causing me to lose my
livelihood, something which I will make the most of, I state
quite candidly.
Mr. Cohn. Is that a threat?
Mr. Mandel. That is not a threat. That is simply a
statement.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you going to make the most of it?
The Chairman. On the reason for calling you, or not, you
said the question of your occupation would have nothing to do
with what is before the committee. We are checking into the
information program, which has been costing us, oh, $125 mill
or $135 million a year. And we have been checking into the
background, the activities, on some of the individuals who are
being used in this fight against communism. That is the
announced objective of the information program. And I think
under the circumstances it is a pertinent question to ask you
about your background, what you are doing today.
I do not know what you are doing today, you see, until you
answer the question.
Mr. Mandel. I am a writer of medical advertising copy to
the profession.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been doing that kind of work?
Mr. Mandel. Oh, since shortly after the last time I was
before a committee hearing here in Washington.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing before that?
Mr. Mandel. Before that I was in the furniture business for
a year.
Mr. Cohn. And what were you doing between then and the time
you were before some other committee?
Mr. Mandel. I have been before one previous committee. Let
me see, now. I have been in this work for a year. I was in the
furniture business for just about a year, I would imagine. And
last prior to that, I was employed as a translator for the
Stefansson Library at 14 St. Luke's Place, New York City.
The Chairman. Is that Vilhjalmur Stefannson?
Mr. Mandel. Vilhjalmur, yes.
The Chairman. I would like to get your thought on this. You
seem to think that we should not inquire as to your occupation
as of today. If you have any valid grounds on which you want to
urge that, we would be glad to hear them.
Mr. Mandel. Yes. The advertising business is a very public
relations-conscious business, and the firm by which I am
employed has important concerns as its clients, and they are
probably more public relations-conscious than is necessary.
That is the situation in the industry. So that if it became
public knowledge that someone employed by that firm had been
before this committee, that, in itself, would probably--it is a
guess; I think a sound guess--would probably be cause for my
losing my employment.
The Chairman. Well, now, I do not want to argue this point
with you, but I would like to get the thought of the other
senators on this.
My thought is, Senator Jackson, that here you have a man
who says, ``If I tell you the truth about whether I am a
Communist today, that might incriminate me.'' It creates a
strong inference, certainly, that he is a member of the
Communist party. Otherwise, it could not very well incriminate
him. His works are being used to fight communism. He is now
writing advertising copy, material being read by the general
public. I can't think of any reason why his occupation should
not be known. Do you?
Senator Jackson. Well, I think that the committee has a
right, on the basis of asking the routine questions incident to
an over-all investigation, to ask what a man is doing and where
he lives. On that basis also, I think we have the right to ask.
Might I say to the witness: I am sure you are realistic
enough to know that when you come before a committee in open
session it will be known in time whether you have answered, and
maybe in a way that might confuse the public; it will be known
that you have appeared, and it will be brought out through the
press that you worked for such and such a company. And it would
occur to me that in order to keep the record straight, you
should simply state it. You are in that situation, and
apparently that is the price you have to pay as a member of the
Communist party.
The Chairman. And as a country, we are apparently dedicated
to the idea that communism is wrong, that it is set to destroy
us, that it is a conspiracy, that it is a crime to be a member
if you are aware of the conspiracy. Therefore, when a man comes
before the committee and says, ``I will not tell whether I am a
Communist or not,'' he, I believe, forfeits any right or any
privilege or special protection by the committee. I think he
should answer all the questions. Under the circumstances, the
answer will stay in the record.
Mr. Cohn. Will you give us the name and address of your
business, and telephone number, at the present time?
Mr. Mandel. Yes. The only point I want to make before
answering it is that I claim no privilege on this matter, and I
simply want to point out that if the committee wishes to face
the onus of causing loss of a job, not in any abstract sense--I
don't think that concerns the committee at all--but in the
practical sense of the impression that might be created upon
the public, if that is the case, I will, since I am aware of no
privilege on this matter, be happy to give you the information.
The Chairman. May I say that I get the impression from what
you said that you were threatening the committee. When you are
outside the committee room, you can say anything you like about
this committee, and if you are a member of the Communist party,
as you indicate by your answer, you are dedicated, of course,
to attacking this committee, regardless of whether you lose
your job. I have been a subject of attacks by every Communist
writer, every Communist in the country. None of them, as far as
I know, have been supporting me or this committee. So that you
are not impressing us at all by any threat to attack it. You
will be just one of a long line, if you do answer the question.
Mr. Mandel. The firm I am employed by is L. W. Frohlich, F-
r-o-h-l-i-c-h, and Company, and I don't know at the moment--
they are in three buildings. I suppose the legal address is 76
East 52nd Street, New York City.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of a firm did you say this was?
Mr. Mandel. They advertise medical products to the
profession solely. That is their business.
Mr. Cohn. Do they have any connection with the government
in any way, any government work?
Mr. Mandel. None whatever, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. I have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
You have told us you are the author of Soviet Far East and
Central Asia?
Mr. Mandel. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. You decline to tell us whether or not you were a
member of the Communist party at the time you wrote that book?
Mr. Mandel. That is correct, for the reason stated.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anything in that book unfavorable to the
Soviet Union?
Mr. Mandel. I haven't read the book in quite a while.
Mr. Cohn. Can you give us your best recollection on it?
Mr. Mandel. As far as that book is concerned, I cannot say
offhand. I can state that, as I stated to a committee last
year, I am aware of injustices, errors, and more of them than I
have described in things that I have written, and have no
hesitation discussing them, and I simply don't know, frankly,
whether in that work at that time I discussed that or not.
Senator Jackson. Have you written anything unfavorable to
the Soviet Union at any time?
Mr. Mandel. In the first place, you would have to define
the term. In short, if one describes the term ``favorable'' as
meaning that everything that happens there is good and nothing
that happens there is bad, then I would say that I certainly
have written unfavorable things. I just don't recall. The book
was written ten years ago, is on a specialized subject, and I
just don't recall.
Senator Jackson. What is your opinion of the anti-Semitism
in the Soviet Union?
Mr. Mandel. Being a Jew, I have certain standards on the
basis of which to judge that. I have never encountered an anti-
Semitic government in history that had a Jewish member of its
cabinet.
Mr. Cohn. Who is the member of the Jewish Cabinet?
Mr. Mandel. Kaganovich, K-a-g-a-n-o-v-i-c-h.
The Chairman. What is his position?
Mr. Mandel. He is one of the vice premiers, one of the
members of the five inner cabinet under the present
administration.
Mr. Cohn. I think Senator Jackson's question was addressed
to these purges. Do you approve of the anti-Semitic purges?
Mr. Mandel. I think that is utter nonsense.
Mr. Cohn. That is just counter-revolutionary propaganda?
Mr. Mandel. It is not counter-revolutionary propaganda. It
is nonsense. I went down and bought a copy of True, Soviet
Labor party. I bought copies of Pravda at the library next to
the main public library on 42nd Street. Four days after this
thing happened, that comes over by air mail, when our post
office doesn't stop it.
And on the same front page of the same paper which
presented the indictment of these physicians, there was an
announcement of the meeting the previous evening of the
committee of Judges for Stalin prize awards in the literature
and science for this coming year.
Among the eleven judges are two men who are well-known to
be Jewish.
Mr. Cohn. And that is that?
Mr. Mandel. And many similar things. If you want a lecture
for an hour and a half, I would be glad to give it to you.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Aaron Berg, who is a very
high functionary in the Soviet Union at the present time?
Mr. Mandel. He is a very prominent writer. I don't know
that he has a function of any kind.
The Chairman. Just one question. As I read the account of
the trials in the Slansky and other cases, the news stories
were to the effect that some of the individuals confessed to
being Zionists. They were hung. That apparently was a major
part of their alleged crime.
Would you agree that it would be a crime to be a Zionist?
Mr. Mandel. Their crimes under the indictment were military
treason, economic treason, murder, and a fourth which I don't
recall at the moment. You may have whatever opinion you care to
about the confessions and the evidence. The fact is that they
describe at great length the crimes which they committed. And
it is a rather interesting fact to me that the New York Herald
Tribune correspondent reported from Washington a couple of days
later that informed anti-Communists in Washington apparently
feel that these men were a little inept and stupid, and more
able men will have to be gotten into that job next time.
Senator Jackson. Well, let me ask you this: You do not
think it is unusual that simultaneously, at least, leaders of
the Communist party in the Soviet Union and the satellite areas
of Jewish origin were all brought to trial at once?
Mr. Mandel. The United States government is openly and
publicly engaged in a program of espionage against the Soviet
Union. In order to do this kind of thing, you have got to have
people who are going to be able to get inside of those
countries. Now, the State Department, which you gentlemen seem
to have differences with, has pursued a policy of cutting off
trade with those countries. Therefore you cannot possibly use a
businessman as cover for that kind of operation. The other side
has cut down the number of journalists which they admit in to a
very small number. Therefore, it is very difficult to find more
people like Oatis to do that kind of job. And so what you are
left with is the possibility of using whoever can get in. Now,
the allegedly anti-Semitic governments of the east European
countries permitted only Jewish organizations, and particularly
this Joint Distribution Committee, to function within their
territories after World War II, despite the fact that there are
similar Ukranian organizations.
Pardon me just one moment.
And apparently they did so on the grounds that the Jews had
suffered special persecution. So that it would seem entirely
logical to me that a government which is by open proclamation
engaged in espionage in their countries as our government is
would utilize whatever organization comes to hand that has
access to those countries.
Therefore, it is not at all surprising that certain people
with that kind of connection were brought to trial.
Senator Jackson. You said the Ukrainian organizations were
not allowed to function.
Mr. Mandel. To the best of my knowledge. Remember, I am
speaking of foreign non-Soviet and east European organizations.
Senator Jackson. What did you say about a Ukrainian
organization?
Mr. Mandel. I said Ukrainian organizations existing in the
United States and Canada were not permitted to function on a
parallel relief basis as the Joint Distribution Committee was.
Senator Jackson. Well, the Ukrainians have never been very
reliable so far as the Soviets are concerned.
Mr. Mandel. That is a matter of opinion. I would say the
record of World War II is that the overwhelming majority of the
Ukrainians were entirely loyal. Hitler put up a puppet
government which fell to pieces in a few weeks.
Senator Jackson. When they are fighting for their home that
is something else; but I am talking about reliable from an
ideological standpoint.
Mr. Mandel. My opinion, since it is a matter of opinion, is
that the overwhelming majority of the Ukrainians have been
loyal to the Soviet Union during the vast bulk of this thirty-
five-year period.
Senator Jackson. So you do not think it is unusual that
Anna Pauker has been removed?
Mr. Mandel. Anna Pauker's successor is a man named Simon
Bugitch, who is also a Jew.
Senator Jackson. You do not think that the Jewish leaders
in the Czechoslovakian government, that were all purged at the
same time, and the doctors in the Kremlin, provide any
significant pattern? You think that is totally unrelated to any
anti-Semitism within the Soviet Union?
Mr. Mandel. The foreign minister of Czechoslovakia, who is
here at the present time, is Jewish, and so forth, on down the
line.
Senator Jackson. I am glad you said that.
Would you like to assure the committee that their tenure is
going to be pretty certain for the future, so we can check on
this?
The Chairman. I am afraid he could not do that.
Let me ask you this question: Do you think the Communist
society is superior to our society in this country?
Mr. Mandel. That would be an interesting question to
debate. But there again, circumstances being what they are, and
legislation being what it is, I am afraid that I would have to
rely upon the Fifth Amendment and refuse to reply to that
question.
The Chairman. Let us rephrase the question. Do you think
the present type of Communist government as it exists in Russia
is superior to the present form of government as it exists in
the United States of America?
Mr. Mandel. That I am afraid is governed by exactly the
same privilege, in view of legislation and prosecutions that
have taken place, with which Mr. Cohn is quite familiar.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you.
Mr. Mandel. So that I am afraid I am unable to answer that
question.
The Chairman. In other words, is it your answer that if you
told us the truth in answer to that question, you think that
that answer might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Mandel. No, sir. I think that the Fifth Amendment has
as its purpose to protect the innocent, and I think that the
origin of the Fifth Amendment lies in the protection of
political dissent.
The Chairman. You will then be ordered to answer the
question.
[Mr. Mandel confers with Mr. Forer.]
The Chairman. May I say to counsel that I do not want to
interrupt the consultation, but----
Mr. Forer. I think he misunderstood the preceding question,
and his answer to that led to your direction. That is what I
think is the situation.
But I understand the chair's position.
Mr. Mandel. What was the question prior to the last
question?
The Chairman. Maybe I should rephrase the question.
The question originally asked was: Do you consider the
present Communist government in Russia more desirable than the
present government which we have in the United States?
Mr. Mandel. And to that question I will reply that I refuse
to answer under the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
The Chairman. Now my question to you is, do you feel that
if you told the truth in answer to that question, your answer
might tend to incriminate you?
Mr. Mandel. Yes. Let me make this clear----
The Chairman. First, just so you will understand us fully:
You see, you are not entitled to claim privilege if you
incriminate yourself by committing perjury. It is only when a
truthful answer will incriminate you that you are entitled to
claim privilege.
Before we can determine whether you are entitled to claim
privilege, we must know whether or not you honestly feel that a
truthful answer might tend to incriminate you.
That is the purpose of that question.
Mr. Mandel. I would say that a truthful answer might tend
to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Okay. Then you are entitled to the privilege.
Mr. Mandel. Fine.
The Chairman. We will excuse you until 10:15 tomorrow
morning.
[Whereupon, at 4:45 p.m., a recess was taken until 10:30
a.m., Tuesday, March 24, 1953.]
STATE DEPARTMENT INFORMATION PROGRAM--INFORMATION CENTERS
[Editor's note.--The literary witnesses on March 24, 1953
included the former Pinkerton detective turned novelist,
Dashiell Hammett (1894-1961), author of Red Harvest (1929), The
Dain Curse (1929), The Maltese Falcon (1930), The Glass Key
(1931), and The Thin Man (1934), which later appeared as motion
pictures. Hammett had joined the Communist party in 1937,
taught at the Jefferson School for Social Science, and was a
trustee of the bail fund for the Civil Rights Congress. He was
convicted of contempt of court for refusing to identify the
contributors to the bail fund and served a prison term from
July to December 1951.
Under the pseudonym Helen Kay, Helen Colodny Goldfrank
wrote such children's books as Insects (1939), Apple Pie for
Lewis (1951), Snow Birthday (1955), Secrets of the Dolphin
(1964), Apes (1970), and The First Teddy Bear (1985).
Jerre Mangione (1909-1998) worked for Time magazine before
becoming an editor for the Federal Writers' Project--the
subject of his later book, The Dream and the Deal: The Federal
Writers' Project, 1935-43 (1972). In 1943 he published Mount
Allegro, an autobiographical account of his life as the son of
Sicilian immigrants, which his publisher believed would sell
better if issued as a work of fiction. Mount Allegro became a
best seller and was reissued five times by different
publishers. In later years, Mangione taught English at the
University of Pennsylvania.
A major writer in the Harlem Renaissance, Langston Hughes
(1902-1967) published his first book of poetry, The Weary
Blues, in 1926. During the 1930s he wrote for the New Masses
and traveled to Russia to make a film about race relations in
the United States, which was never produced. The author of
plays, novels, short stories, film scripts, musicals, war
correspondence and a regular newspaper column for the Chicago
Defender, Hughes was best known for his poetry, and edited the
anthologies The Poetry of the Negro, 1746-1949 (1949) and New
Negro Poets, USA (1964).
Dashiell Hammett, Helen Goldfrank and Langston Hughes
testified at a public hearing on March 26, 1953. Jerre Mangione
did not testify publicly.]
----------
TUESDAY, MARCH 24, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to Senate Resolution 40,
agreed to January 30, 1953, at 2:00 p.m. in room 357 of the
Senate Office Building, Senator Karl E. Mundt, presiding.
Present: Senator Karl E. Mundt, Republican, South Dakota;
Senator Everett M. Dirksen, Republican, Illinois; Senator John
L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; and Senator Stuart Symington,
Democrat, Missouri.
Present also: Roy Cohn, chief counsel; David Schine, chief
consultant; Daniel Buckley, assistant counsel; Henry Hawkins,
investigator; and Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk.
Senator Mundt. The committee will come to order.
Mr. Cohn. The first witness is Mr. Hammett, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Mundt. Mr. Hammett, do you solemnly swear the
testimony you are about to give us is the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Hammett. I do.
Senator Mundt. Be seated. Proceed, Mr. Cohn.
TESTIMONY OF DASHIELL HAMMETT
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Hammett, will you give your full name,
please?
Mr. Hammett. Samuel Dashiell Hammett.
Mr. Cohn. And what is your occupation?
Mr. Hammett. Writer.
Mr. Cohn. You are an author?
Mr. Hammett. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. For how long have you followed that calling?
Mr. Hammett. Since about 1922, roughly thirty years.
Mr. Cohn. You know that a considerable number of your works
are used in the State Department Information Program?
Mr. Hammett. I did not know that until you told me on the
phone.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think we have given you a good civil suit
for royalties?
Mr. Hammett. I doubt that, because thinking about it, the
chances are the radio end that was sold is owned by the movie
people.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Communist party today?
Mr. Hammett. I decline to answer on the ground that the
answer would tend to incriminate me, pleading my rights under
the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Communist party in 1922?
Mr. Hammett. I decline to answer on the ground that the
answer might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. You have written a number of books between 1922
and the present time, have you not?
Mr. Hammett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. About how many?
Mr. Hammett. Five, I think.
Mr. Cohn. Just five books?
Mr. Hammett. Yes, and many short stories and stuff that has
been reprinted in reprint books.
Mr. Cohn. If I were to ask you as to each one of these
books if you were a Communist party member at the time you
wrote the book what would your answer be?
Mr. Hammett. The same.
Mr. Cohn. You would refuse on the ground you stated?
Mr. Hammett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you write a story which could be classed as
other than a detective story?
Mr. Hammett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What?
Mr. Hammett. I have written quite a number of short stories
that were not detective stories.
Mr. Cohn. Any that deal with social problems?
Mr. Hammett. I don't think so. Yes, I remember one, if you
take it as a social problem. Some short stories have been in
paper bound books that have been published in book form.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of those deal with social problems?
Mr. Hammett. Yes. As a matter of fact, roughly one that I
remember, a short story called ``Night Shade.''
Mr. Cohn. ``Night Shade''?
Mr. Hammett. ``Night Shade,'' which had to do with Negro-
white relations.
Mr. Cohn. In what book is that published?
Mr. Hammett. I don't know, because that was published in
one of the reprints or collections of which a great many have
been published. Practically all of the short stories have been
published by either Mercury or Avon or Dell.
Senator Mundt. Were they first all published in a magazine?
Mr. Hammett. Yes, it was first published in a magazine that
I think is now out of existence. I have forgotten what its name
was. I could look it up.
Mr. Cohn. When you wrote this short story, ``Night Shade,''
were you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Hammett. I decline to answer on the ground the answer
may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Did that story in any way reflect the Communist
line?
Mr. Hammett. That is a difficult--on the word ``reflect'' I
would say no, it didn't reflect it. It was against racism.
Senator Mundt. Would you say that it resembled--whether it
reflected or not--the Communist line with respect to race
problems?
Mr. Hammett. No, I couldn't pick out--I could answer that
question, if you just put it, did it at all, but did it reflect
that more than, say, other political parties, I would have to
say no. I think the truth would be that it didn't reflect it
consciously or solely.
Mr. Cohn. Consciously or solely. Have you ever had any
contact with the publications commission of the Communist
party?
Mr. Hammett. No.
Mr. Cohn. You have not?
Mr. Hammett. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any members of the publications
commission of the Communist party?
Mr. Hammett. You would have to tell me.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Alexander Trachtenberg?
Mr. Hammett. I have to think about that. I think I decline
to answer that on the ground that the answer might tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Louis F. Budenz?
Mr. Hammett. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Alexander Bittelman?
Mr. Hammett. I think, or my impression is, that he was in
the West Street Jail at the same time I was there.
Senator Mundt. Where--jail?
Mr. Hammett. Yes. I did six months for the bail bond--five
months, a month off for good behavior.
Senator Mundt. Was that a contempt citation?
Mr. Hammett. It was over the bail bond fund.
Mr. Cohn. After the Communists jumped bail, the three
trustees, including Mr. Hammett, were called in and refused to
answer questions about the whereabouts of these fugitives, and
they refused to produce books and records of the bail bond
fund, and were sentenced to jail. That is a fairly accurate
statement?
Mr. Hammett. Fairly.
Senator Mundt. Was Bittelman in the jail for the same
reason?
Mr. Hammett. What happened, the bail bond bail was revoked,
and since there were a group of so-called Communists out on
bail put up by the fund, until that was revoked, they were out
until they raised bail from other sources.
Mr. Cohn. Do you get royalties from the purchase of your
books?
Mr. Hammett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, if a copy of your book is bought,
you get a royalty.
Mr. Hammett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What is the customary royalty?
Mr. Hammett. I don't know. I think mine is 15 percent.
Publishers' contracts run from 10 percent, and have provisions
if there is a sale above a certain amount, it goes up. I think
mine is a flat 15 percent, but I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever contributed money to the Communist
party?
Mr. Hammett. I decline to answer on the grounds the answer
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any other income other than that
derived from your writings?
Mr. Hammett. No. There have been times when I have. At the
moment I haven't.
Mr. Cohn. Have any moneys you have received as royalties
from the sale of these books been contributed to the Communist
party?
Mr. Hammett. I decline to answer on the ground that the
answer might tend to incriminate me, pleading my rights under
the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. I think I have nothing more of Mr. Hammett, Mr.
Chairman.
Senator Mundt. You might say for the record how generally
the State Department has been buying these books and
distributing them throughout information libraries overseas.
Mr. Cohn. Very widely. We will have the exact figures by
the morning, but I would say that the number of copies in use
are in the hundreds.
Senator Mundt. Any other questions? If not, you may step
down.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Hammett, we might want you in public session
tomorrow morning, as I explained to you. Would you be here
tomorrow morning.
Mr. Hammett. I can be.
Mr. Cohn. At 10:15 tomorrow morning, in this room. Thank
you.
Mr. Hammett. I am through now for the day?
Mr. Cohn. You are through until 10:15 tomorrow morning.
Senator Mundt. I would like to ask you one more question,
Mr. Hammett. You answered the question as to whether or not you
received a royalty from your books. I think you said earlier
that some of your plays or short stories or books were placed
in the motion pictures. Is that right?
Mr. Hammett. Yes.
Senator Mundt. Do you get a royalty from that, too?
Mr. Hammett. No. I said that in connection with the radio.
The motion picture as a rule, mine have all been, the four
books sold to motion pictures have been sold outright. But
there is, as I said, on the radio thing a provision--I think I
would have to look at the contracts--but motion picture
companies put in a provision that gives them the radio right
also.
Senator Mundt. Do I understand that the motion pictures pay
you nothing for your work?
Mr. Hammett. No. They buy the motion picture right. It
varies with different companies, but the right for television
is in dispute, because that had not come up then. But they took
care of the radio.
Senator Mundt. In other words, whenever they made a motion
picture from the book or short stories, they made a contract
that paid you outright for the motion picture rights?
Mr. Hammett. That is right. The other they put in, because
they had no intention of selling radio rights, because the
thought of radio in those days as competing with motion
pictures kept you from serializing on the radio at the same
time.
Senator Mundt. Will you stand, please, and be sworn. Raise
your right hand. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I do.
TESTIMONY OF HELEN GOLDFRANK (ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
CHARLES E. FORD)
Senator Mundt. Give your name and address for the record,
please.
Mrs. Goldfrank. Helen Goldfrank, Thornwood, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Could we have counsel's name for the record?
Mr. Ford. Charles E. Ford, 416 Fifth Street, N.W.,
Washington, D.C.
Mr. Cohn. Your name is Helen Goldfrank?
Mrs. Goldfrank. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been known by any other name?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I believe I must stand on my rights of
special privilege as provided under the Fifth Amendment of the
Constitution, and I can not answer that question as it may tend
to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. You decline to answer on the ground the answer
might tend to incriminate you, and you exercise your privilege
under the Fifth Amendment?
Mrs. Goldfrank. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. As to whether you have ever been known by another
name?
Mrs. Goldfrank. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation--Is it Mrs. Goldfrank?
Mrs. Goldfrank. My occupation is Mrs. Goldfrank.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do any writing?
Senator Mundt. I did not hear a word she said.
Mrs. Goldfrank. Housewife.
Mr. Cohn. What Is your husband's first name?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must decline to answer that question on
the ground that it might tend to incriminate me under the Fifth
Amendment to the Constitution, and also on the basis of
privileged communication between husband and wife.
Mr. Cohn. You think his first name is a privileged
communication?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Yes. I wouldn't know his name unless I were
married to him.
Mr. Cohn. Was your husband a member of the national
committee of the Communist party?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must repeat that I regret that I must
decline to answer your questions on the basis of personal
privilege as the answer may tend to incriminate me and I seek
the protection of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution, and
secondly, under the Constitution, the status of the family is a
privileged communication, and under that I refuse to answer.
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to answer on the ground the answer
might tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. That is correct.
Mr. Ford. May the record show she gave two grounds? You
stated one.
Senator Mundt. The record will show everything she says
loudly enough to be heard, and nothing else.
Mrs. Goldfrank. I am sorry but my voice is not very loud.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this: Have you ever written any
books?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must again regretfully refuse to answer
on the rights of special privilege under the Fifth Amendment to
the Constitution that any answer I give you will tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard of a book called Apple Pie
for Lewis? \3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\3\ Helen Kay, Apple Pie for Lewis (New York: Aladdin Books, 1951).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mrs. Goldfrank. I respectfully decline to answer on the
ground that my answer may tend to incriminate me under the
Fifth Amendment to the Constitution.
Senator McClellan. Have you honestly been telling the truth
when you say you are afraid it will incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I am honest in telling the truth.
Mr. Cohn. I do not understand how it could incriminate you
to say that you have heard of a certain book.
Mr. Ford. May I address the committee on that? I believe
our courts have ruled that if a witness after asserting the
right is called upon to explain how the right would be
affected, they are waiving the privilege.
Senator Mundt. I believe the courts have also held that a
witness is in contempt if there is no valid ground for
incrimination.
Mr. Ford. Only if the senators decide to cite him in your
judgment.
Senator Mundt. I think the witness should be apprized of
that fact. If she invokes the right when it does not exist, she
could be cited.
Mr. Ford. I believe to save you time she realizes when she
declines you all intend to say she should answer so that will
cover the question.
Mr. Cohn. I don't think it is a matter of intention. The
privilege can only be exercised if it is exercised in complete
good faith with the sincere good belief that if an answer is
given, it might result in incrimination.
Mr. Ford. Correct.
Mr. Cohn. Is it your testimony, Mrs. Goldfrank, that if you
say you have heard of a book known as Apple Pie for Lewis, that
that answer, if you answered truthfully, might tend to show you
are guilty of a crime, it might tend to incriminate you. That
is what the privilege is.
Mrs. Goldfrank. That is my answer.
Mr. Schine. Have you heard of the book Gone With the Wind?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I would like to consult my lawyer. May I
have the privilege of speaking with my lawyer?
Mr. Schine. Certainly.
[Witness consults with her counsel.]
Mrs. Goldfrank. That book has no relationship to me and is
innocuous, and I have naturally heard of it.
Mr. Cohn. It is your testimony then that this book, Apple
Pie for Lewis is not innocuous?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I refuse to answer that question on the
ground of possible self incrimination.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know that this book of yours, Apple Pie
for Lewis and another book of yours are being widely used by
the State Department information program?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I cannot answer that on the basis of
possible self incrimination.
Mr. Cohn. Are you today a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I respectfully decline to answer that
question on the basis of the Fifth Amendment and my right of
personal privilege that any answer I may give may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been a member of the Communist party at
any time over the last twenty years?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must again repeat, I respectfully decline
to answer your question on my constitutional right under the
Fifth Amendment that my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the party in 1951?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Once again I respectfully decline to answer
your question as my answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. You have told us you are a housewife. Do you have
any outside source of income, any moneys other than those given
you by your husband?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I believe two factors would be involved
there. I respectfully decline to answer on the basis that any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me, and the second
would be the privileged communication between husband and wife.
Mr. Cohn. My question is whether or not you, forgetting
about your husband, have earned any moneys other than those
which your husband has given you. It does not involve your
husband at all. The only question is, have you received any
moneys other than those given you by your husband?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I once again----
Mr. Cohn. I will tell you right now I will recommend to the
chairman that there is no possible question of husband and wife
privilege on that. We are addressing ourselves here to whether
or not you received any other moneys.
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must respectfully decline to answer that
question within my rights under the Fifth Amendment as any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me.
Senator McClellan [presiding]. Does the chair understand
that you think if you gave testimony as to your own personal
income from sources other than through your husband that that
would tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I can only answer in the same way, sir.
Senator McClellan. I am asking you if you think that it
would tend to incriminate you. That is what I am asking you. If
you gave the committee information regarding your income,
income that is independent from that of your husband, your own
personal income, are you stating to the committee that you
think that to give such testimony truthfully would tend to
incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must respectfully decline to answer your
question as I believe----
Senator McClellan. You decline to answer whether you think
it would tend to incriminate you, do you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I think it would tend to incriminate me.
Senator McClellan. That is what I asked you and you decline
to answer on constitutional grounds. I asked you if you think
to give such testimony regarding yourself, independent of your
husband, you think it would tend to incriminate you.
Mrs. Goldfrank. Once again, I repeat that any answer--I
must stand on special privilege of the Fifth Amendment.
Senator McClellan. You do not have that very well
memorized. I am asking you if you think it would tend to
incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I think it would tend to incriminate me.
Senator McClellan. You think it would tend to incriminate
you to answer that question?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Yes.
Senator McClellan. To answer the question that you think it
would tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Yes, sir.
Senator McClellan. So then you are unwilling to tell the
committee, are you, that you believe honestly that it would
tend to incriminate you if you answered these questions?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I believe once again----
Senator McClellan. I cannot understand you. I am sorry.
Mrs. Goldfrank. I am sorry, too, sir. Would you repeat your
question?
Senator McClellan. Do you tell the committee that you think
that it would tend to incriminate you if you answered the
question whether you honestly believe if you answered the
question regarding your separate and independent income that
that would tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I do.
Mr. Schine. Where were you born?
Mrs. Goldfrank. New York City.
Mr. Schine. And where did you go to school?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Excuse me. May I consult with my attorney?
Mr. Cohn. You may consult with counsel.
[Witness conferred with her counsel.]
Mrs. Goldfrank. I would stand on my right of special
privilege and feel that answering that question would tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Schine. You do not wish to tell the committee where you
went to school?
Mrs. Goldfrank. No.
Mr. Schine. You feel honestly if you did it would tend to
incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I do.
Mr. Schine. In the school that you went to, did you ever
hear the pledge of allegiance to the American flag?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Yes.
Mr. Schine. You did. Did that pledge of allegiance mean
anything to you before you got involved in this trouble, or
before you got mixed up?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must once again repeat that I cannot
answer your question on the basis that it may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Schine. Are you now involved in espionage against the
United States government?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I stand on my constitutional right of
refusing to answer that question as that question may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Schine. Did you carry money from Moscow to Germany for
the Communist party?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I once again stand on my constitutional
right of personal privilege and refuse to answer that question
on the basis of the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution as the
answer to that question may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Schine. Have you been in Moscow?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I once again must refuse to answer your
question as that answer to that question may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Schine. Do you regret that you are unable to tell the
committee whether you are now or have ever been a member of the
Communist party?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I regret on the basis of special privilege
that I cannot answer your questions within my rights under the
Fifth Amendment as any answer to that question may tend to
incriminate me.
Mr. Schine. You misunderstood the question. Do you regret
that you cannot answer the question, are you now or have you
ever been a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Goldfrank. May I consult my counsel?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
[Witness conferred with her counsel.]
Mrs. Goldfrank. I once again must stand on my rights of
special privilege and refuse to answer that question because
under the Fifth Amendment I have the right to plead that that
answer may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Schine. Do you honestly believe in the overthrow by
force and violence of the United States government?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I refuse to answer that question as that
question may tend to incriminate me under the rights of special
privilege.
Mr. Schine. I have no more questions.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this. Did you testify before a
federal grand jury in New York recently?
Mrs. Goldfrank. May I consult my counsel?
Mr. Cohn. Surely.
[Witness conferred with her counsel.]
Mrs. Goldfrank. I refuse to answer that question as any
answer I may give may tend to incriminate me and I stand on the
special privilege of my rights under the Constitution.
Senator Symington. Mr. Chairman, I recommend that the
witness be considered in contempt of the committee for not
answering. Not answering a question of that character is
absurd.
Senator McClellan. May I ask one other question. Are you an
American citizen?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I am, and I am proud of it, sir.
Senator McClellan. You are an American citizen?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Yes.
Senator McClellan. You do not think that incriminates you,
do you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Once again, as an American citizen, sir, I
stand on my right under the Constitution of special privilege--
--
Senator McClellan. Is there anything in America that you
are proud of except that constitutional right you invoke so
freely and so insistently? Can you mention anything else you
are proud of about America except this right that you claim to
be invoking at this time? Do you think it will incriminate you
to answer that?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I would like to consult my attorney.
Senator McClellan. All right, consult him.
[Witness conferred with her counsel.]
Mrs. Goldfrank. I am proud of the entire Constitution of
the United States, and on the basis of the Constitution I seek
special privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
Senator McClellan. Do you believe in the overthrow of the
Constitution of the United States, which you now say you are
proud of?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I must once again plead special privilege--
--
Senator McClellan. If you are proud of it, why do you think
it intimidates you, after you say you are proud of it, to say
that you do not believe in the overthrow of it?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I once again must plead special privilege
Senator McClellan. You have said that you are proud of all
of the Constitution of the United States. Do you now insist
that it might incriminate you to answer the question whether
you believe in the overthrow of that Constitution, which you
now say you are proud of? Do you still insist that that might
tend to incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I think my answer to that question would
tend to incriminate me.
Senator Symington. Have you ever acted as a spy for a
foreign country?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I refuse to answer that question.
Senator Symington. On the ground it might incriminate you?
Mrs. Goldfrank. That is right.
Senator Dirksen [presiding]. Mrs. Goldfrank, when you
stated that you are a citizen, are you a native born citizen or
a naturalized citizen?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I believe in the first question, I was born
in New York City.
Senator Dirksen. You are then native born.
Mrs. Goldfrank. Yes.
Senator Dirksen. And you are how old, if that is not too
personal?
Mrs. Goldfrank. I am forty years old.
Senator Dirksen. What was your answer?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Forty.
Senator Dirksen. You are forty?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Yes.
Senator Dirksen. And you have lived continuously in the
United States, I suppose, except for any excursions you may
have made abroad since that time?
Mrs. Goldfrank. My residence has been in the United States.
Senator Dirksen. What is your regular occupation, if you
have any? Is it authoring works such as appear here before the
committee, or do you have a profession, or are you associated
with some company?
Mrs. Goldfrank. Sir, I must plead the point, the wife's
special privilege, and refuse to answer on the basis that any
answer I may give you might tend to incriminate me.
Senator Dirksen. I think for the purposes of the record I
should advise you that I doubt very much whether you can take
refuge in the Fifth Amendment on a question of that kind. I do
not believe it involves your liberty at all.
Mr. Ford. May I address the senator?
Senator Dirksen. Yes, I would be glad to hear you.
Mr. Ford. I believe that question has appeared in many of
the cases tried in our district court here, what is your
occupation. I know of several. These grew out of the Kefauver
committee hearings, and the question was asked, ``What is your
occupation,'' and the people refused, and they were sustained
in our court when they did refuse on the constitutional ground.
Senator Dirksen. They did not have to divulge what their
occupations were?
Mr. Ford. That is right. The